Powwow-Forum

[Chief Larry D. Nichols]

Hensci Herr Holllla,

First, I don,t know who you are. Second, you need to identify yourself.
Third, I don,t answer questions that are meant for others.
Fourth, I,m not here to be abuse in the internet.
Five, if you have the courage to call me and identify yourself, I will answer your questions face to face.
Six, I have said before and I will say it again. This is not the proper place or the time to discuss complete nonsense like this here. So, I,m easy to find here in Germany and I will be looking forward to personally speaking with you very soon.

Cehecires,

Chief Larry D. Nichols

[Lightning Bear]

Holllla

I am sorry that you had to sleep in your car. Believe me when I say that I know what it is like to sleep in the cold. Please also remember that the Indian people that were there were not the only ones talking and doing workshops or ceremonies. I am also sorry if some people left early, but that is their choice. I am sure that they did not leave just because of the Indian that were there. You are right when you say that religion is not forsale and especially for us. We do not go looking for people to listen to us or follow our ways. We do not now nor have we ever had missionaries. If you or anyone else has a complaint, then you or they should take it up with the people who put on the congress. Do not accuse us or put us down for all the wrongs of the congress just because we accepted an invitation like everyone else that was there. Germans, American, South Americans as well as Native American had tables there. For some reason you seem to only want to sigle out the Indians. So take you complaints to the people who put it on and do not make it sound like I or one of the others, like I said, was the cause of all that was wrong with the congress. Concerning my mood as you said you saw me (then why did you ask if I was there), I had a very long day and a very long way to get home and was tired, not unhappy. Concerning whether you will go back or not is your choice. You must always follow what is right for you. But do not accuse people of doing something like I said before, unless you have all you facts.

[Lightning Bear]

I completly agree with Chief Nichols.

[Holllla]

Hello both of you (Larry and Lightning bear)!
As I said... I did not want to blame anybody and maybe I'm wrong... as I said... I'm just a stupid white person.

Yes, I know that there were many persons there at the congress- and yes , I agree, one came to me and also told me, that he makes shamans seminars...brrrrrr!!!!!!

As I said... anybody of you must know by yourself, ... anybody I meat or also I don't agree or agree with , must know by himself, what he or she is doing-... I don't have the right to judge about that... or even to talk about that... I just can ask and wonder.

Larry, I will email you who I am... maybe you remember than. Lightning bear... sorry, I don't have your email somewhere... if I find it somewhere in the www, than I email you also.

But please... what I want to tell you is.. please don't put any white German in your wannabee box...that is also not fair. Please , you can make what you want in your life- as I said- I 'm not here to judge anybody- or to tell anybody what he or she should do. I never wanted this, sorry, if you felt like this.... what I mean is... there are some things in life, that we stupid German people see... and we also try to make us a picture of that- and yes indeed- we sometimes also see things wrong... also if we tried to find out everything about that.

Don't misunderstand me- please- but also we stupid white people have our own expiriences... sometimes no good ones....

And as I said I just can spent a lot respect to you Larry, you told me a lot about yourself and I have to say: I just can have great respect to that!!!! Lightning bear: I don't know really much about you, just what happened to me at that congress- where I was really unhappy- I don't think, I go to that congress again....

Please, as I said, sometimes we see our world with our own eyes... we feel our own feelings- that never will be the feelings of a native person...as I said, most of us really don't want to tell you what you should do or not do. I also know that there are some stupid people in that world that want do that....but we are not all the same and PLEASE don't put everybody in your wannabee box... it could be, that you will be misunderstood.. and that helpes nobody of us.

That was what I wanted to say officially here in the forum...

I hope, it came clearly out, that I have a lot of respect to all native people all over the world. AND that I really have great respect to all Native Americans that try to let us be somehow part of their culture...and who want to tell us something about their culture and answer all of our questions... many thanks to them! to all of you!

[Smiling Dream Crow]

I am happy to see the lines of communication have been opened. Creator has answered our prayers.

Holla, when you ask questions about pipes and Moonshine Drumming, you are asking about our religion/spirituality. May I suggest you speak with us in person about these things? We fully understand your confusion and we will answer your questions in the proper place and at the proper time.

I appreciate the German people for their great interest in our culture. I attribute this interest to Karl May and his works of fiction that opened your hearts to my people.

I am also very thankful to the German people who do PowWows properly and respectfully. I agree with what Lightning Bear has said. The only PowWows I will go to in Germany are those done by the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and those done by Seven Arrows (Offstein and Burbach).

I have lived in Germany for almost ten years now. I have attended many Hobbyist PowWows and have seen things that will haunt me forever. (WARNING: PAINFUL FACTS TO FOLLOW. PLEASE DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE OF A SENSITIVE NATURE!) Some of the things I have seen include:

1. Women dancing as Grass Dancers, changing clothes, and coming back in the arena to dance Fancy Shawl.
2. Eagle feathers lying on the ground being sold.
3. Drummers removing gum from their mouth and sticking it to the side of the drum.
4. Half-dressed women drumming.
5. Owls being allowed to fly into the dance circle.
6. Native Americans being pushed, knocked and shoved around in the dance circle by others trying to get the attention of the contest judges.
7. At contest PowWows, male judges for female dancers.
8. At contest PowWows, female judges for male dancers.
9. Chief Nichols being pushed as he attempted to line up for Grand Entry because the Arena Director wanted to make sure his friend got in line.
10. A non-native man who has been adopted by me and several other Native Americans being called "Der A _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ von Sweiss" (German spelling... fill in the blanks) when he asked for one more Mens Traditional Dance before the PowWow ended. He was called this by the Arena Director.

Incidents such as this are EXTREMELY PAINFUL for Native Americans. In fact, I am usually sick for days after going to Hobbyist PowWows. I would never, ever take my parents, children, grandchildren or any visiting Native Americans to such an event where they would be traumatized and terrorized.

These things do not happen at Native American PowWows and they will never happen at PowWows done by Seven Arrows. So, yes, we will support their PowWows. However, the time has come for Native Americans to turn their backs on those who are not doing things properly and respectfully.
We have tried to teach most of these people but our words have fallen on deaf ears. I hope this clears things up a bit for you and you have a better understanding about why we feel this way.

Another sad reality is that German people are being scammed every day by frauds and phonies who claim to be "Medicine Men", related to some great Chiefs or Holy Man, etc. etc.. I definitely do not want to offend anyone but I must say I feel you are being taken advantage of because of your good hearts, generous nature, and love and sympathy for my people.
We HATE to see this happen and we hope to educate you so you will not become the next victim of the next "Plastic Shaman" (Shame On) who shows up and will teach you everything you need to know and you spend your hard-earned money.

Holla, we don´t call anyone "stupid white people" or "wannabe white people". German blood runs through my veins and it runs through the veins of Chief Nichols and Tonya Hounting Wolf as well. German blood runs through the veins of Lightning Bear´s children. If we were to say such a thing, we would be disrespecting our German ancestors and our part German descendents. I have done some pretty stupid things in my life too, but I learned something from each of those experiences. To me, it is important to learn from it and then move on to the "next lesson" life will teach you.

We do have a category for people we feel are trying to "Out NDN" us. This category is full of people who have made it clear to us they know more about our culture than we do and can teach us a thing or two about our culture.

This topic of discussion is painful for me and I am sure it is painful to some of you as you read it. However, you have to have pain before the wound begins to heal. So I believe what is happening here now is a good thing and will benefit everyone.

I hope I live to see the day when the people of the world stop seeing the differences in other people and begin to see how very much alike we are...
regardless of the skin color, religion, country, etc. We are all related.

Smiling Dream Crow
(Liz Roemer)

[Chief Larry D. Nichols]

Hello both of you (Larry and Lightning bear)!
As I said... I did not want to blame anybody and maybe I'm wrong... as I said... I'm just a stupid white person.

Yes, I know that there were many persons there at the congress- and yes , I agree, one came to me and also told me, that he makes shamans seminars...brrrrrr!!!!!!

As I said... anybody of you must know by yourself, ... anybody I meat or also I don't agree or agree with , must know by himself, what he or she is doing-... I don't have the right to judge about that... or even to talk about that... I just can ask and wonder.

Larry, I will email you who I am... maybe you remember than. Lightning bear... sorry, I don't have your email somewhere... if I find it somewhere in the www, than I email you also.

But please... what I want to tell you is.. please don't put any white German in your wannabee box...that is also not fair. Please , you can make what you want in your life- as I said- I 'm not here to judge anybody- or to tell anybody what he or she should do. I never wanted this, sorry, if you felt like this.... what I mean is... there are some things in life, that we stupid German people see... and we also try to make us a picture of that- and yes indeed- we sometimes also see things wrong... also if we tried to find out everything about that.

Don't misunderstand me- please- but also we stupid white people have our own expiriences... sometimes no good ones....

And as I said I just can spent a lot respect to you Larry, you told me a lot about yourself and I have to say: I just can have great respect to that!!!! Lightning bear: I don't know really much about you, just what happened to me at that congress- where I was really unhappy- I don't think, I go to that congress again....

Please, as I said, sometimes we see our world with our own eyes... we feel our own feelings- that never will be the feelings of a native person...as I said, most of us really don't want to tell you what you should do or not do. I also know that there are some stupid people in that world that want do that....but we are not all the same and PLEASE don't put everybody in your wannabee box... it could be, that you will be misunderstood.. and that helpes nobody of us.

That was what I wanted to say officially here in the forum...

I hope, it came clearly out, that I have a lot of respect to all native people all over the world. AND that I really have great respect to all Native Americans that try to let us be somehow part of their culture...and who want to tell us something about their culture and answer all of our questions... many thanks to them! to all of you!

Hello E... H.....,

Thank you for your comments about all Native Americans, we too are humans and make mistakes like everybody else. We have the good, the bad and the ugly just like all people around the world.

E..., we are growing tired of the misuse here and we are fighting for that which is ours, its all we have left. It has been passed down to each one of us to carry on and make this a better world for all of us. Its something that we hold as holy as all other cultures around the world.

It was never our intention to hurt anyone or to blame all the German people. We are very grateful to many German people here for their help and support, and at the same time there are those individuals, white, red and "Turned Dick" that misuse our Native American culture for profit and would probably even sell their own mothers if they could make a dollar!

These individuals are the ones that we are standing up to and challenging for their abuse to Native American culture here. They help and support each other in order to make themselves look good for the public that has no ideal about Native Americans at all, while claiming to be something they are not, Medicine man, family members of great Chiefs and Warriors, NDN,s, "keepers" of titles that don,t exist etc.

We know who they are and so does the Elders of all the Nations and Tribes at home, we have make sure of that, also AIM knows these individuals as well and will deal with each one of them accordingly when the time is right.

Yes, we are fighting for that what is right for our people and ourselves. There is alot of things that should not be discussed on an open forum so this is all that you need to know right now, and when the time is right , you will know more, all of Europe will know. All the best to you and your family.

Cehecires,

Chief Larry D. Nichols

[Tibiki Kinew]

Kwe Kwe Larry!
It seems to me that you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Toooooo much misunderstanding. I see it all the time here too, but don't get me wrong, I grew up on the rez and went to Germany to learn there as well. I have seen that the bigest collection of beadwork prior to 1900 is still found in Frankfurt. Traded for honestly, not stolen off of the bodies of the dead like Custer the Azzhoe was known to do. Culture problems exist all over, here where I work in the Gov, they are suppppper french and a little english, a whole bunch of hippocrits. The pity is these are the same folks that run to church on sundays to be forgiven for the crap they belive in so much. Because of that I am excluded and just do my work as well.

So to you I take off my hat, we of the same generation, I "Road Kill Warrior" agree that it is time to SEE and listen once more.

My prayers are with you from here on Turtle Island and the Land of Creators true paradise.
P.S.
Just a side line of a joke, the rez where I am the Chief was my mentor and when he sat with me he said," I went to war in Gremany as a sniper to kill the Germans, when I got home again I found out that my daughters had married the enemy,,,now I adopt a son as well and know that I am better for it."

I never regretted being with him, I learnt so much, that even his own family called him a useless freakin drunk,,, I deny that from the heart, I listended and learned,,,while the nation drank.

[benzi]

Hallo Hartmut,

Es ist bestimmt interessant, was Ihr da alle schreibt. Ich hoffe nur, wenn ich mal in meinem nächsten Leben mal nach Amiland komme, dass da genausoviel deutsch gesprochen wird wie hier im Forum englisch.

Wenn ich in Rumänien im Urlaub bin, freuen sich die Leute mit ihrem Gast in englisch oder deutsch reden zu können, sie sind stolz darauf eine andere Sprache zu können und sich mit ihren Gästen in dieser Sprache unterhalten zu können.

Wenn ich in Holland bin erwarten alle von mir holländisch zu lernen, rat mal wo ich lieber hinfahre und mich wohler fühle?

Viele Grüße an die, die so sein wollen wie Indianer und an die die nicht wollen das andere so sind wie sie und vor allen an diejenigen, die so sein wollen wie sie eben sind.
Hartmut

Nein ich will nicht so sein wie ich bin, ich will mich verändern, ich will lernen, ich will, so blöd das auch klingt, ein besserer Mensch sein, als ich es nunmal bin. Wenn ich dabei von Native Americans etwas lernen darf, oder von anderen Kulturen, und das für diese ok ist, dann versuche ich das. Ja ich wäre gerne wie mancher Native American, vor allem RESPEKTVOLLER.
Respektvoller gegenüber den Menschen die ich liebe, respektvoller gegenüber den Tieren die ich liebe.....

Ich weiß es ist eine Modeerscheinung seine Fehler als gegeben hinzunehmen. Das nennt man dann "seine dunkle Seite akzeptieren" oder so. Ich stehe zu meinen Fehlern, aber ich muss sie nicht hinnehmen. In der Veränderung liegt die Hoffnung, nicht im Erstarren.

liebe Grüße benzi

[Chief Larry D. Nichols]

Kwe Kwe Larry!
It seems to me that you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Toooooo much misunderstanding. I see it all the time here too, but don't get me wrong, I grew up on the rez and went to Germany to learn there as well. I have seen that the bigest collection of beadwork prior to 1900 is still found in Frankfurt. Traded for honestly, not stolen off of the bodies of the dead like Custer the Azzhoe was known to do. Culture problems exist all over, here where I work in the Gov, they are suppppper french and a little english, a whole bunch of hippocrits. The pity is these are the same folks that run to church on sundays to be forgiven for the crap they belive in so much. Because of that I am excluded and just do my work as well.

So to you I take off my hat, we of the same generation, I "Road Kill Warrior" agree that it is time to SEE and listen once more.

My prayers are with you from here on Turtle Island and the Land of Creators true paradise.
P.S.
Just a side line of a joke, the rez where I am the Chief was my mentor and when he sat with me he said," I went to war in Gremany as a sniper to kill the Germans, when I got home again I found out that my daughters had married the enemy,,,now I adopt a son as well and know that I am better for it."

I never regretted being with him, I learnt so much, that even his own family called him a useless freakin drunk,,, I deny that from the heart, I listended and learned,,,while the nation drank.

Hensci Cvhesse Tibiki Kinew,

Mvto my friend for your kind and friendly comments and most importantly, also for your prayers. We can never get enough of those.

We are doing our best here and things are starting to change for the better of these people because they are starting to see the light and the truth about their own German people and a few "real" NDNS that are bullshiting them into believing that they are "NDNS", medicine man, and many other total full of shit stuff.

So we still have alot of work to do here. At any rate, mvto again for your support and we all here are always looking forward to hear from you again soon my friend. All the best.

Cehecires,

Larry

[Tibiki Kinew]

Greetings Larry, your Road Kill Warrior is still suprized at the lack of education. You know that I have cried many tears just for the fact that many NDN children were taken from their loving parents to go to a church school,,, to learn about the love of the only god,,,, what a crock of shit, My Best friend got analy raped and then had his head stuck under water to convert to a good catholic,,, then to top it off they chopped his pride and joy, his hair, literally shaved him to a wee brush cut, then tossed chemicals on him and deloused him. Heck he had no lice ,,, the white kids had it more than the NDN kids did. He washed every day summer or winter in the open water, yet they called him a filthy pig. I spent years with him and slowly he learned that it was them not him that was sick,,no not physically but mentally, they were the ones.
He had trouble with gals for a lot of years and in fact became a loner. We spent years in the bush, finding Creator and sweats were a daily ritual for a while for him. He watched his mother and sisters getting raped. His father was given wisky,,, gooooood injun wiskey, laced with Strycnine,,, the poison to kill wolves at one time by trappers. They killed him. So tell me who again is the loving God and great christian?? His is one of many stories that are true and very painful.

There is another that hurts my heart so bad, a married couple has a daughter and the mother and her girl friend are drinking booze laced with some kind of crap, they get high and get angry and the girl friend takes a butcher knife and slices the head off of the daughter. The hubby goes into shock, takes drugs to kill his pain, the girl friend goes into a mental rehab joint and is free, hubby gets the visit to a jail as they catch him high. The wife leaves and now he is truly alone. For two years I gave him all I could, but to no avail. He is back on drugs and doesn't care anymore about his life and wants to die. The carver and artist in him is long gone. The man died the moment he saw his daughter beheaded.
Do the whites understand this,,,, 99% never, they haven't been there and never will be.

I still am the one that has his door open 24/7 and help where I can. Grandmother once told me that the road would be a tough one to go and I admit,,,it ain't easy but damm I will never give up. I have become a pipe bearer here and have been to many spiritual gatherings and healings. The hurt is still there and I know I can't help all the souls, but each one helped is one that can eventually help another soul in pain.

I have only met one medicine man in my life and one medicine woman, the woman is now my mentor, she of all people is still the one urging me to continue and with her love and blessings I have kept true to my vision and still smile and keep the tears inside until the first hug of another victim of the white mans society.

O'neh Larry your friend over at golden Lake Ontario Canada.

By the way, I do gather all kinds of road kills and reuse and spread the parts to those that need them.. Check out the gallery here and see my stuff, I just sent a fan to British Columbia Canada for a medicine woman, owl wing with a trim of wolf fur on a deer leg. The leather covering the joints of the bone and the wing were done with green died deer hide. Green for mother earth and the rest you may already know. She was in tears when I just sent her the pic of the fan, she is picking some wild local sage for me as a blessing gift. I told her it wasn't necessary but she is insisting.

My 2 cents for tonite.
Chi Meegwetch and O'neh.

[Smiling Dream Crow]

I made this post in another thread where people took the Burbach discussion to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, well, well. I thought the topic about Burbach had been put to rest, but it seems some people decided to bring it back to life in another thread. Very interesting.

Tibiki, not all tribes have the same customs and/or traditions. We do not speak for tribes/nations other than our own and we certainly do not publically criticize elders. This is not the first time I´ve caught you doing this and I am disappointed in your behavior and comments that are obviously aimed at me.

Women are dirty when they are on their periods huh? And that is your excuse for why I shouldn´t be near or handling feathers? lmfao. Sorry, I stopped having those years ago. Next?

THERE WERE NO MALE VETERANS OR ACTIVE DUTY WARRIORS WILLING TO RETRIEVE THE FEATHERS. SOMEONE HAD TO DO IT. THE FEATHERS WERE NEVER RETRIEVED BY EITHER A MAN OR WOMAN BECAUSE THE MAN THE ROACH BELONGED TO SNATCHED IT OFF THE GROUND. SO WHAT ARE YOU FOLKS RAMBLING ON ABOUT THIS FOR? IF YOU DON`T APPROVE OF THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED, TOO BAD FOR YOU. WHEN I WANT OR NEED YOUR OPINION OR APPROVAL, I WILL ASK FOR IT.

Smiling Dream Crow
aka Liz Roemer

[Chief Larry D. Nichols]

I have not heard from this person, so here is the letter that I promised to him that I would send out to all the Pow-wow organizers in Europe, Native American Nations,Tribes in the U.S. and Canada.

Hensci Ingo Goellner,

I have been informed of the disrespectful deed that was committed at an open Pow-wow last Saturday here in Germany. I was told that you Herr Goellner are the disrespectful person. Herewith, is some good advice for you in the future.

If you want to support Native Americans and have good intentions, that is just fine with us. We go out of our way in order to do everything we can to share our culture and traditions with the German people. We are guests here in your Country and we pay all due respect and manners to your culture and people.

We have been insulted, misused, sued and lied to by many here that claim to be Native Americans or "my father was an Indian" types and so on, when in reality these persons are born and raised Germans, playing "Indian." We call them Wannabees (want to be Indians).

We welcome all people to our Native American Pow-wows here with the good intention that these people will mind their manners and show respect for our culture and traditions through-out the Pow-wow. It is also a well known fact that a lot of German people here have been "Bullshited" (PUNK) by these Wannbees and even some "Indians" as well, for money, sex or some other "deal" in order to make one an "Indian". I feel sorry for these persons because they are getting a real butt ramming.

Taking this matter into consideration, a lot of these persons come to Pow-wows believing they are now "NDNS" and know everything about the Native American culture. I,m here to tell you Herr Goellner that that is complete bullshit!

Lets take a look at what happened last Saturday according to the info that I got. Someone noticed that there was two "Eagle feathers" on the ground at a Pow-wow where the grounds had been blessed (Doctored, Muskokee/Creek way)and purified according to tradition, which is an event that is holy to us, you can even say its like a day at your Church where you go to pray in your belief to your God.

Now, what does that mean to Native Americans? It means that we have two fallen Warriors on the ground and we have to pick them up in a very respectable way according to our traditions and religion. Our Warriors are all those Native Americans that have paid with their lives, those on active duty, reservist and our Veterans, who honorably served their Tribes, Country and people.

These Warriors are the protectors of the people. That's how we look at Eagle feathers, and they also deliver our prayers to the Giver of Breath in the sky. According to the info that I got, an Elder Native American member from my Tribe in Florida was in the process of praying, cleaning and purifying these two fallen Warriors when she was rudely and totally disrespectfully interrupted by you.

Whereby, you snapped these two Warriors up off the ground saying that she was placing "bad medicine" on your "feathers" and that only your Blackfoot "Medicine man" was the only one that could touch your "feathers".

Herr Goellner, you don,t realize what you have done by doing that and you obviously don,t know nothing about the Native American culture and traditions. If you were able to get out of there with your hair on your head, then you were lucky. If I had been there, you would not have been so lucky.

You destroyed the Spirit of those two fallen Warriors in our eyes and that means we are now without those two Warriors who mean so much to us. Maybe you may have noticed that the Native Americans there had tears in their eyes, because they know our ways, even the Germans there who know this also were crying from embarrassment.

My mother told me as a child, when you do something like this, she would say. "You have now made your bed, so now you will have to sleep in it too." If you have any manners or self respect what so ever, the best thing for you to do now is to apologize and ask for forgiveness to the Elder Native American you insulted, all the other Native Americans you insulted, the Pow-wow organizers and all the people there at that Pow-wow now.

I hope that I have made myself clear on this matter and I would even be willing to take your message, if any, to them. But if I don,t hear from you in the very near future, I will know your true feelings and I will have you band from all Pow-wows here and in the United States and Canada by sending this message to all the Pow-wow organizers here in Europe, and all the Tribes and Nations abroad. Then, If you still have a problem and want to settle it by "other" means, well, I am not hard to find. As a human being with honor, respect and dignity, I wish you well Herr Ingo Goellner.


Cehecires,

Chief Larry D. Nichols
Blackwater Tribe of Lower Muskokees
European Representative

[Tibiki Kinew]

I made this post in another thread where people took the Burbach discussion to.

Tibiki, not all tribes have the same customs and/or traditions. We do not speak for tribes/nations other than our own and we certainly do not publically criticize elders. This is not the first time I´ve caught you doing this and I am disappointed in your behavior and comments that are obviously aimed at me.

Well gee of course each trige and group has different customs, without them we would have nothing, don't get me wrong on this, the Elders get my greatest respect, heck I am nearly one now. I hope that you don't think I am pointing fingers, I am so fed up of people taking something sacred and turning it into a carnival. And please I am not aiming at you, heck We don't even know each other. I was only aiming at the old traditions of years gone by. I still live by them every day here.

Women are dirty when they are on their periods huh? And that is your excuse for why I shouldn´t be near or handling feathers? lmfao. Sorry, I stopped having those years ago. Next?

Those were the words of one FEMALE Elder told to me just that moment when she read this very topic. She said remind them of the lodge that was kept separated from the rest of the village for these very women.

THERE WERE NO MALE VETERANS OR ACTIVE DUTY WARRIORS WILLING TO RETRIEVE THE FEATHERS. SOMEONE HAD TO DO IT. THE FEATHERS WERE NEVER RETRIEVED BY EITHER A MAN OR WOMAN BECAUSE THE MAN THE ROACH BELONGED TO SNATCHED IT OFF THE GROUND. SO WHAT ARE YOU FOLKS RAMBLING ON ABOUT THIS FOR? IF YOU DON`T APPROVE OF THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED, TOO BAD FOR YOU. WHEN I WANT OR NEED YOUR OPINION OR APPROVAL, I WILL ASK FOR IT.

Sorry for yelling, now from me , I say sorry from my heart that we have gotten on a wrong foot, it is sometimes hard to explain when you are not face to face, feelings do not come across and words are so empty. So Liz if you took my words wrong sorry for the mixed feelings. Grandmothers know best, heck they have always led the councils in the past and still the men think theyare the leaders,, but when they get home ,,,who do they ask,, of course the main squeeze,, their pride and joy a woman.

O'neh for now from the wide open spaces!

[Chief Larry D. Nichols]

Hensci Tlbiki,

I think that one of the main problems that our Native people have today is that we are our own worst enemies.

Now, that could be due to the fact that "not" all Tribes and Nations speak the same language (hell, very few can even speak their own language today), or have the same traditions, ceremonies and religious back grounds etc... I could go on and on but, thats not what I want to bring over at this moment.

I have no doubt what so ever of your honor and self respect, you have now clearly showed that with your respectful responce to Liz, who is yes, a Native American Elder and a very respectible Elder at that, and she is a fighter and protector of her people as well as you and I are.

Yes, you are well informed of the situation here in Germany and you know as well as I do, that only a few of these people here, if any at all, have any "proper" knowledge of our Native culture, and I,m sure you know what I mean by that.

Cvhesse Tibiki let us work together as Natives for the best of all our people and not against each other. There has been so much damage done in the past and we do not need anymore. Liz knows this also, so please don,t think that I,m pointing my finger at you. Because I,m not.

Whats left of Turtle Island is all we have besides our culture, traditions, honor and dignity. Every thing else has been pretty much stolen or taken away from our Grandfathers, and denied to us, so let us walk in hormony together, I think that is all what I wanted to say. All the best to you and your family. Enka, Cehesse.

Cehecires,

Chief Larry D. Nichols

[Tibiki Kinew]

She:kon Larry,,, wow you are one great spokes person, too bad you are over there and not here, we need leaders such as yourself. So true when you say that the languages are being lost, I have over 800 pages of Ojib that need to be entered into a data base for a dictionary. Most of the folks I know, know only a few words, a tragedy that was inflicted upon the race by the whites of so called civilization.
My Elder from here is one of the last living Mig Maw, better known as Mic Mac,,thanks to th french. She is a very staunch supporter of the old ways. I take her teachings now with pride and have my eyes and ears open for her.

So Chi Meegwetch from Powwow country where I am going to tomorrow agin for the day only. Maniwaki is a quaint old time traditonal powwow and I always look forward to it. This one is not commercial. I will sweat tomorrow too, think of you all while I put my offerings in the sacred fire that is there..

[Ryan]

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
As a northern traditional dancer, I have traveled throughout the U.S. and Europe. I have been on the Head Staff as Head Man Dancer in several southern pow wows. I have participated in dance contests. I have been called upon by respected Head Judges to judge both men and women´s contests from golden age to juniors. I have watched and learned from the very best MC´s and AD´s in
the pow wow world. I have had the honor of dancing to the top drum groups, both northern and southern drums.

WO LIEGT DER UNTERSCHIED?
Als nördlicher traditioneller Tänzer bin ich durch die ganzen USA und durch Europa gereist. Ich war bei einigen südlichen Powwows Head Man Dancer. Ich habe an Tanzwettbewerben teilgenommen. Ich wurde von respektierten Head Judges aufgerufen, um Männer und Frauen zu bewerten, von Golden Age bis Juniors. Ich habe beobachtet und von den besten Arena-Direktoren und MCs in der Powwow Welt gelernt. Ich hatte die Ehre zu den besten Trommelgruppen zu tanzen, nörliche und südliche Trommeln.

What I understand is the basic elements needed to make a pow wow successful. I know how important it is to put a good Head Staff in charge of running a pow wow. It is the backbone of every pow wow. Those individuals are chosen for their knowledge and for the respect the pow wow community has for them.

Was ich dadurch verstanden habe ist, man braucht nur Basiselemente, um ein Powwow erfolgreich zu veranstalten. Ich weiß, wie wichtig es ist, einen guten Head Staff zu bestellen um ein Powwow durchzuführen. Es ist das Rückrat von jedem Powwow. Diese Leute werden ausgesucht, wegen ihres Wissens und dem Respekt, den die Powwow-Gemeinde ihnen entgegen bringt.

What I speak of is, how you would feel once you attend or participate in a pow wow in the U.S. From a 1 day Benefit Pow Wow to a large 4 day Contest Pow Wow. I have watched, participated and learned.

Wovon ich hier spreche ist, wie ihr euch fühlen würdet, ein Powwow in den USA zu besuchen oder auch an einem teilzunehmen an. Von einem 1-Tages Wohltätigkeits-Powwow bishin zu einem 4-Tage Contest Powwow. Ich habe beobachtet, teilgenommen und gelernt.

Coming here to Germany, I have done my best to help and inform anyone interested in what is happening in pow wows today. I have watched how fast pow wows are changing and what I had described of the pow wows in the U.S. is happening here in Germany today. For me, there is only one way to run a pow wow.

Als ich nach Deutschland gekommen bin, habe ich mein bestest getan um jedem zu helfen und zu informieren, über das was sich heutzutage auf Powwows ereignet. Ich habe beobachtet, wie schnell sich Powwows ändern und was ich über amerikanische Powwows beschrieben habe geschieht heutzutage auch hier in Deutschland. Für mich gibt es nur einen Weg, Powwows durchzuführen.

The question I have is what is the difference from what people call "Hobbyist Pow Wows" and then so called "Native Pow Wows"? To criticize and make arugements about certain aspects of pow wows makes me want to ask Why? You have all that is needed from a Head Staff. You have drum groups come and set their drums up and make the dancers want to dance. You have MC´s, AD´s, Host Drums and Head Judges. Each does his or her best to carry out what is asked of them. The Pow Wow Committee has final word, no matter if you are here in Germany or the in the U.S. As a northern traditional dancer I will always dance my best when the drum group starts a song. I will be respectful and do what is asked of me by the MC or AD or Head Judge. Here in Germany and in the U.S.

Die Frage, die ich hier stellen möchte ist: Was ist der Unterschied zwischen einem "Hobbyisten Powwow" und einem so genannten "Native Powwow"? Bestimmte Aspekte eines Powwow zu kritisieren und zu diskutieren läßt mich die Frage stellen WARUM? Ihr habt alle Personen, die man für den Head Staff braucht. Ihr habt Trommelgruppen, die nur ihre Trommel aufstellen müssen und trommeln, so das die Tänzer tanzen wollen. Ihr habt MCs, Arena-Direktoren, Hostdrums und Head Judges. Und jeder tut sein/ihr bestes um das durchzuführen, wozu sie aufgefordert wurden. Das Powwow-Komittee hat das letzte Wort, egal ob ihr hier in Deutschland seid oder in den USA. Als nördlicher traditioneller Tänzer werde ich immer bestmöglich tanzen, sobald die Trommel ein Lied beginnt. Ich werde respektvoll sein und das tun, wozu ich durch den MC, den AD oder den Head Judge aufgefordert werde. Hier in Deutschland und in den USA.

If you have questions, I am here. I will be dancing in the 6th Westerwald Contest Pow Wow held in Asbach.

Wenn ihr Fragen habt, ich bin hier und ich werde auf dem 6. Westerwald-Contest Powwow in Asbach tanzen.

I am Ryan Burr, full blood Mandand and Hidatsa, from the Fort Berthold Indian Resveration in North Dakota.

Ich bin Ryan Burr, Vollblut Mandan und Hidatsa, von der Fort Berthold Reservation in Nord Dakota.

[Hanswurst]

This is the difference

Hi Ryan,
if I understand you correctly, your point of the posting is the question:
"What is the Difference between a hobbyist powwow and a so called native Powwow"
This puzzles me a little. As you point out your vast experience with powwows, you should be able to answer it yourself.
I will try to address your question anyway, based on my own personal experiences and also take you up on your offer to answer questions I have.

What I speak of is, how you would feel once you attend or participate in a pow wow in the U.S. From a 1 day Benefit Pow Wow to a large 4 day Contest Pow Wow. I have watched, participated and learned.

The first Powwow I ever attended was actually a Powwow in the US. I also watched, participated in a special way for my wife and me and also learned.
I don't know how other people would feel, once they attend a Powwow in the States.
Also participating in a Powwow in the US is impossible for non native Americans at some places.

Coming here to Germany, I have done my best to help and inform anyone interested in what is happening in pow wows today. I have watched how fast pow wows are changing and what I had described of the pow wows in the U.S. is happening here in Germany today. For me, there is only one way to run a pow wow.

I'm afraid I miss your point completely on this one.
You state that powwows are changing fast(in what way?).
Are you saying that a powwow which is not run in an "up to date" way is a bad powwow?
What is that one way to run a powwow?

The question I have is what is the difference from what people call "Hobbyist Pow Wows" and then so called "Native Pow Wows"? To criticize and make arguments about certain aspects of pow wows makes me want to ask Why?

You obviously didn't read the thread at all or didn't understand a word , asking this question.
Or do you believe that the hobbyists action owning the eagle feathers is perfect behavior at a powwow?
Could that be the latest way powwows have changed and we don't know about it yet?
This persons actions has been discussed here in great length over 4 pages and with more than 1000 views and like everybody else, I believe that his behavior is very questionable.

You have all that is needed from a Head Staff. You have drum groups come and set their drums up and make the dancers want to dance. You have MC´s, AD´s, Host Drums and Head Judges. Each does his or her best to carry out what is asked of them.

I don't feel that I'm the right person to tell you what a powwow is about, but here it goes anyway:
There is more to a powwow than just having MC's, AD's, judges etc and everybody trying to do their best (which is also questionable, see below).
I was told that "to dance is to pray".
While ADs, MCs, etc. provide the technical requirements to have at a powwow
you miss out on the most important aspect, the dancing and praying.
This is my view and of course you can look at it differently, since that aspect is every single persons own business.

The Pow Wow Committee has final word, no matter if you are here in Germany or the in the U.S. As a northern traditional dancer I will always dance my best when the drum group starts a song. I will be respectful and do what is asked of me by the MC or AD or Head Judge. Here in Germany and in the U.S.

I am Ryan Burr, full blood Mandand and Hidatsa, from the Fort Berthold Indian Resveration in North Dakota.

This would be good if it would be the way you describe it.
To the contrary I like to provide you with a few examples of things happening at powwows I attended, including your very own actions:

Dancer being asked to bring in POW/MIA flag. Was refused because sale of items more important.
Eagle feathers laying on the ground, offered for sale.
Flags taken into the circle for 2nd grand entry, without retiring them before.
Dancer being called an "asshole" for asking AD for another Mens Traditional.
A chief being shoved around during lineup for grand entry.
Dancer in regalia getting drunk between saturday night/sunday morning. Unable to walk in a straight line, yelling for more beer.

I could come up with more questionable things happening at powwows, but I hope you get the idea.
This brings me back to your original questions: What's the difference?
While this things could happen at what you call "native american powwows", for the most they did happen at "hobbyist powwows" and are actually not even questioned by the powwow organizers or silently tolerated.
That is the difference.

A full blood German from Sulzbach/Taunus, Germany who won't be in Asbach for questions.
Hanswurst/AR

[Hollla!]

Hallo Hanswurst!

Übrigens muß ich anmerken, daß die Pfeifenköpfe(übrigens entgegen meiner Angabe von damals handelt es sich um unfertige Köpfe, sorry, hatte mich verguckt) aus von mir oben genannter Homepage verschwunden sind.....

Frage an Hanswurst: Könnte es vielleicht sein, das jeder von uns auf seine Art und Weise betet?

Question to Hanswurst: Couldn't it be, that everybody of us prays in his/her own way???

Auf wieviele Powwows, die von bösen Hobbyisten abgehalten wurden, warst Du?

At how many powwows held by bad hobby people, were you???

Viele Grüße von einem Powwowteilnehmer, der mittlerweile seit 10 Jahren u.a. zu Powwows fährt und das nicht nur in Deutschland.

Best regards from a Powwowperson that goes to powwows and more for more than 10 years and not just in Germany.

[Hanswurst]

@Hollla:

I wrote: "that aspect is every single persons own business" in regards to praying.
I'm not telling anybody when, how and if to pray.
In regards to how many bad powwows I attended: It was one to many..
Did you ever had any bad experiences at a powwow?

Viele Grüsse
Hanswurst/AR

[Christoph]

WARUM ZUM HIMMEL UNTERHALTEN SICH ZWEI DEUTSCHE IN EINEM DEUTSCHEN FORUM AUF ENGLISCH? WOLLT IHR NICHT VERSTANDEN WERDEN?

Einige Amerikaner hier haben genug Respekt vor den Lesern, um zweisprachig zu schreiben. Von diesen Leuten kann man lernen!

[Holla!]

Hallo Hanswurst!

Sicher haben mir auch schon Dinge auf Powwows nicht gepaßt...und da kann man wohl sagen international.... Aber so lebe ich doch nach der Devise: Leben und Leben lassen....zumindest versuche ich es!

Sure, there were things at powwows, I did't like..and I would say internationally....But I live in the way : Live and let live.... or better I try it!

Wenn mir etwas nicht gepaßt hat, so habe ich es doch zumeist versucht im Stillen, hinten herum zu klären und erst als letzten Schritt Dinge öffentlich gemacht....und ZWAR ERST DANN,WENN SICH BESAGTE PERSON MIR GEGENÜBER REICHLICH ZU WEIT AUS DEM FENSTER GELEHNT HAT, und zwar meist zum wiederhohlten Male! Ich weiß aber, daß wir alle nur Menschen sind und alle unsere Fehler machen. Ich denke doch, das wir alle die Dinge, die wir tun mit unserem Schöpfer abmachen müssen...jeder mit seinem! Auch zb ein Lightning bear, eine Smiling Dream Crow, ein Larry Nichols und ein Ryan und wie die anderen, ungenannten hier mit ihrem! Wohlgemerkt auch ich mit meinem!

When I didn't like anything, I mostly tryed to handle it in the back and just getting officiall, when this person whad been gone to far in my case...and mostly after several times this person did that. But I know- we are all just men and we all make our mistakes. But I think, we all have to make this clear with our creator..everybody with his own! Also a lightning bear, a smilling dream crow, a Larry Nichols and a Ryan and all the not named people with their creator! I also with my one!!!

Sagt mal Jungs... wäre es denn nicht bedeutend besser, dem anderen etwas mehr Toleranz entgegen zu bringen? Ich meine...es ist für mich ok, wenn jemand sagt:" ein Powwow ist für mich nicht zeremoniell genug, wenn es in der Halle mit bunter Beleuchtung stattfindet"- ok, kein Problem.....aber auch in USA finden Powwows in Hallen und mit Diskobeleuchtung statt- und diese Leute -Natives- sind doch deshalb noch lange nicht doof- nur weil sie es nicht so handhaben, wie es mir paßt. Und das gleiche gilt für weibl. Elder, die Federn aufheben, Frauen, die Federn tragen, Mädchen (Natives wie Nonatives), die Man's fancy, Grass- oder Hoopdance tanzen, weißen Hobbyleuten, die A-Federn tragen, Natives, die Kunst oder Kunsthandwerk verkaufen, um ihren Lebensunterhalt damit zu verdienen....usw...die Liste ließe sich beliebig fortsetzen.

Tell me guys..wouldn't it be better to bring a little bid more tolerance to the other one? I mean: It is ok to me, when somebody tells me:"a powwow is not ceremonial to me, if it is going on in a gym hall with colorfull lights"...ok...no problem to me! But also in US are Powwows going on in Gym halls with fancy light- and all these people-Native people- are not all stupid because of I didn't like it. And the same you can say about female elder,taking feathers from the ground, Woman that are wearing feathers, girl's(Natives as Nonatives) dancing man's fancy, grass, or hoopdance, white people wearing eagle feathers, Natives that sell arts and crafts for their income..and so on...the list could be endless.

Was ich nicht verstehe...und da bin ich nicht allein hier, denke ich,

What I don't understand...and I'm not alone here, I think....

Warum kann man nicht manche Dinge mal als gegeben akzeptieren...und wenn's einem nicht paßt, mal höflich nachfragen, ohne gleich Dinge zu verbieten und den Anderen als dumm hinzustellen. Wenn ich ehrlich bin, finde ich das doch reichlich anmaßend! Da werden Rechte für einen selbst eingefordert, die man seinem Gegenüber nicht bereit ist zu gewehren ..wo ist da Toleranz....wo ist da Respekt..

Why can't we accept some things as they are... and when we don't like them, to ask...FRIENDLY..without forbidding imidiatly, or calling the other one stupid. When I'm honest, I don't think everybody has the right to do that. There was asked for rights, these people don't give to the others....were is there tolerance...were is there respect...

Ich meine...klar gibt es überall Idioten....die Fehler machen, und wenn jemand ihre Schuld auszubügeln versucht, demjenigen auch noch dumm kommen.

I mean....Yes there are everywhere idiots...that makes mistakes, and when other people try to correct this mistake, are stupid against that person.

Ich stimme mit sojemanden nicht überein!
I don't agree with somebody like this!

Aber ich bin es doch normalerweise gewohnt, sowas mit demjenigen direkt zu klären....Freundlich und höflich!
But I normally handle it directly with that person....In a friendly way!

Wo waren also MC, AD und all die anderen Tänzer-
So, where were MC, AD and all the other dancers-

Ich denke, wenn ich neben dieser Person gestanden hätte, als das passiert ist...
I think, when I would have stood beside that person, when it happenend....

hätte ich denjenigen- unter 4 Augen- mal ein paar ordentliche Takte gesagt. Und zwar ICH als WEißER!

than I would have told some things to that person- under 4 eyes. ME as WHITE person!

Aber dafür bin ich auch eigentlich bekannt, denke ich.
But I'm also known for this, I think.

Best regards

[Hollla]

Hallo Christoph!

Wie Du vielleicht gemerkt hast schreibe ich bei den Dingen, die uns alle angehen zweisprachig... als eine Art Respekt....Weil ich versuchen möchte, daß mich beide Seiten verstehen- jedenfalls dann, wenn sie es sollen....

Aber vielleicht ist manche Einsprachigkeit ja auch durchaus gewollt- quasi ein Versuch Dinge mit jemanden etwas persönlicher, direkter zu regeln... auch wenn das in einem Forum so eigentlich nicht geht.

Gruß

[Holla]

Apropo hab ich von Hanswurst noch nicht erfahren, zu wieviel Powwows er denn schon war....ich meine Europäischen Powwows.

Also ich war DIESES Jahr schon 2x in Polen zu modern Style Powwows, 2x in Deutschland und einmal in Prag (modern Style)........und dann noch zu 2 oldstyle Powwows...unsere Tschechischen Nachbarn sagen dazu Wacipi...einmal in Prag und einmal in der Nähe von Brno

Gruß

[benzi]

WARUM ZUM HIMMEL UNTERHALTEN SICH ZWEI DEUTSCHE IN EINEM DEUTSCHEN FORUM AUF ENGLISCH? WOLLT IHR NICHT VERSTANDEN WERDEN?

Also dann verstehe ich nicht warum dieser Satz:

Powwows in .de
Bitte schreibe auf deutsch oder englisch. Please post in german or english.

in diesem Forum steht?

Diese Betonung des DEUTSCHEN kommt bei mir irgendwie......seltsam an.

liebe Grüße benzi

[little]

wieso

wir leben in Deutschland

[Tonya Hountingwolf]

wieso

wir leben in Deutschland

Hallo,

das ist richtig, dass wir in Deutschland leben, aber wenn es hier um Diskussionen über Pow Wows geht ( welches immer noch eines unserer Kultur ist ) , dann finde ich es nur fair, dass man in Deutsch und englisch posten sollte, denn einige von uns können nur wenig Deutsch . Ausserdem ist es hier doch erlaubt, Deutsch und Englisch zu schreiben.

Grüße

Tonya Hountingwolf

Hello ,

that is right, that we live in germany, but if there are discussions about Pow Wows ( which is still our culture ) then its just fair to post in German and in english. Because some of our people only talk a little German. Anyway, it is allowed to post in Englisch and in German.

Sincerely

Tonya Hountingwolf

[Smiling Croweye]

A full blood German from Sulzbach/Taunus, Germany

Was ist das den??? Fehlt nur noch das jemand postet
mit den Worten "ich bin stolz ein Deutscher zu sein..."

[Holllla]

Nunja...warum sollen wir nicht auch ein bißchen Stolz sein, auf unser Land.....also ehrlichgesagt weiß ich nicht, warum ich das nicht sein sollte...

Da gibt es doch viele Aspekte, auf die man stolz sein kann... zb leben wir in einer Demokratie....die es zb nicht nötig hat noch HEUTE angebliche Staatsfeinde zu internieren, zu foltern und zu quälen ....Guantanamo zb!

Außerdem haben wir zb recht friedlich dieses Land wiedervereinigt...zb.....

Da ließe sich doch noch ne Menge mehr anbringen.

Und es ist doch gut, daß er sich als Deutscher bekennt.... besser wie die Söhne und Töchter von Geronimo...(So viel kann Geronimo gar nicht gepopt haben, wie er Anverwandte hat...jedenfalls in Deutschland.....Oder im vorherigen Leben indianische Princessin gewesene! Wohl gemerkt...ich meine nicht G. tatschliche Anverwandte!
Also da verstehe ich das Problem nun wirklich nicht.

Gruß

[Christoph]

Also dann verstehe ich nicht warum dieser Satz:

Powwows in .de
Bitte schreibe auf deutsch oder englisch. Please post in german or english.

in diesem Forum steht?

Zugegeben, der Satz drückt nicht das aus, was ich eigentlich meinte, nämlich, daß man auch in englisch schreiben kann, wenn man kein deutsch kann. Deutsch sollte hier aber immer erste Sprache bleiben, weil sehr viele Leute hier kein oder wenig englisch verstehen.

Diese Betonung des DEUTSCHEN kommt bei mir irgendwie......seltsam an.

Oh je, da muß ich aber etwas grinsen.
Wenn du mich kennen würdest, wüßtest du, daß ich der allerletzte bin, der irgendwas deutsches hervorhebt, oder stolz darauf ist.
Mir geht es nur darum, daß die Leute, die hier lesen wollen, auch den Sinn des Geschriebenen verstehen. Wenn man seine Muttersprache benutzt, entstehen weniger Mißverständnisse. (Auch, wenn diese Muttersprache zufällig deutsch ist. )

[benzi]

Wenn du mich kennen würdest, wüßtest du, daß ich der allerletzte bin, der irgendwas deutsches hervorhebt, oder stolz darauf ist.

Tja, Worte im IN werden schnell missverstanden Meine auch, allzuoft.

Ich hoffe das mit dem Kennenlernen können wir bald mal ändern, fänd ich toll! In Heilbronn im September?

liebe Grüße benzi

[Christoph]

Ich hoffe das mit dem Kennenlernen können wir bald mal ändern, fänd ich toll! In Heilbronn im September?

Danke gleichfalls! Allerdings werde ich nicht in Heilbronn sein. Ich wohne in Berlin, und wir fahren schon eine Woche vorher nach Asbach. Zwei solche teuren Touren sind echt nicht drin.

[benzi]

Ich wohne in Berlin, und wir fahren schon eine Woche vorher nach Asbach. Zwei solche teuren Touren sind echt nicht drin.

Mach doch die Woche Urlaub, kannst gerne zu uns kommen, Zelt auf Pferdekoppel neben Fluss und so.
Besuch ist immer herzlich willkommen.

liebe Grüße benzi

[Kati]

Hello Liz, hello Hanswurst,

I participated powwows all over Europe since 8 years and met a lot of powwow people from the state. Today are some of them my family! I got the chance to learn a lot of powwow behavior from this people from the first dance steps to powwow rules. They gave me different video tapes about powwows in the states, to learn from this videos. They taught me the differences between northern style powwows and southern style powwows, intertribal powwows and contest powwows, and, and, and….. I read this thread more than one time and now I have some questions. Why can’t a man judge women and vice versa in Germany, when they do it in the states? Why can’t you have a second grand entry, when the flags were not retreated before here in Germany, but they do it (sometimes) in the states. Why can’t an owl fly during the break over the dance arena, when the dance arena was smoked before next grand Entry? Some tribes in the states admire owls. Have you ever heard about a 49? I heard that a 49 is very popular between powwowdays. What’s wrong, when the 49 is at a different place? And the party you are talking about is, the only guy who was drunken, he was a native!!! Why can’t the powwow committee respect a “no” from a vendor for carrying the flag. In the states nobody would complain. How can a pow wow be run by using CD´s and not a live drum group? There are no pow wows in the states that do that. Why do you support a dancer, who doesn’t accept the orders of an arena director and start to argue, although you know that is the first rule: You have to obey the orders of the AD.

So please tell me, are all the teachers I had are wrong. If you can teach me more, please let me know, I want to learn it right!

Ich nehme schon seit 8 Jahren an Powwows in ganz Europa teil und habe viele Powwow-Leute aus den Staaten kennen gelernt. Heute gehören einige von ihnen zu meiner Familie. Ich habe die Chance bekommen von ihnen das Benehmen auf einem Powwow zu lernen, vom ersten Tanzschritt bis hin zu den Powwow-Regeln. Sie gaben mir verschiedene Powwow Videos aus den USA um von ihnen zu lernen. Sie lehrten mich den Unterschied zwischen Powwows im nördlichen Stil und Powwows im südlichen Stil, Intertribal Powwows und Wettbewerb-Powwows und so weiter... Ich habe diesen Threat mehr als einmal gelesen und habe nun einige Fragen.
Warum kann ein Mann in Deutschland keine Frau bewerten und umgekehrt, wenn man es doch so in den Staaten macht? Warum kann man in Deutschland keinen zweiten Grand Entry haben, wenn es vorher keinen Flagretreat gab, wenn man es (manchmal) in den Staaten so macht? Warum darf keine Eule, während der Pause, über die Tanzarena fliegen, wenn diese vor dem nächsten Grand Entry gereinigt (geräuchert) wird? Einige Stämme in den USA verehren Eulen!Hast Du schon mal was von einem „49“ gehört? Ich habe gehört, das der 49 in den USA sehr beliebt ist, zwischen en Powwow-Tagen. Was ist falsch, wenn ein 49 an einem Platz abseits vom Powwow-Gelände stattfindet? Auf der Party, die Du meinst war nur eine Person betrunken und das war ein Native (Indianer). Warum kann das Powwow Komitee kein „nein“ von einem Händler respektieren, der gebeten wird, die Flagge beim Grand Entry zu tragen. In den Staaten würde sich niemand beschweren. Wie kann ein Powwow nur mit CDs veranstaltet werden, ohne Live Trommelgruppe, es gibt keine Powwows in den Staaten, die so etwas tun. Warum unterstützt du Tänzer, die die Anweisung des Arena-Direktoren nicht befolgen sondern anfangen zu diskutieren, obwohl du weiß, das dieses die oberste Regel ist: Den Anweisungen des Arena Direktoren ist Folge zu leisten.

Also bitte sage mir, haben alle Lehrer die ich hatte unrecht? Wenn Du mir mehr beibringen kannst, lass es mich wissen, ich möchte es richtig lernen!

Gruß

Kati

[Ryan]

I hope that anyone coming to a pow wow, here in Germany, will see the Native American culture celebrated in a good way. I and other Native American dancers and singers have shared our knowledge each time we have visited Germany. In the past 5 years, there have been many positive changes. Those changes have come from viewing pow wow videos, pow wow web sites and CD´s. Everyone can learn the newest styles in outfits and learn songs from the latest drum groups. And I have past on first hand knowledge from the latest pow wows in the states. There are many good singers and dancers with good outfits here in Germany. They enjoy participating and learning from each powwow.

Ich hoffe, daß jeder, der hier in Deutschland zu einem Powwow geht, sieht, wie die Kultur der Ureinwohner Nordamerikas in einer guten Art und Weise zelebriert/gefeiert wird. Ich und andere indianische Tänzer und Sänger haben unser Wissen geteilt, jedesmal wenn wir in Deutschland waren. In den letzten 5 Jahren gab es viele positive Veränderungen. Diese Veränderungen kamen davon, daß viele Powwow-Videos, Powwow-Webseiten und CDs angesehen und gehört wurden. Jeder kann den neuesten Stil bei den Tanz-Outfits erlernen und die Lieder der aktuellen Trommelgruppen lernen. Und ich habe meine eigenen Erfahrungen der letzten Powwows in den Staaten weitergegeben. Es gibt viele gute Sänger und Tänzer mit guten Outfits hier in Deutschland. Sie genießen es, daran teilzunehmen und lernen von jedem Powwow.

To discuss what is good or bad concerning pow wows, first the Head Staff must work hard to anticipate any event that happens during a pow wow. Some may say it does not matter, but if there are any type of problems it usually means that the Head Staff was not prepared. Everything from singing correct songs (Host Drum); judging a contest (Head Judge); honoring a individual (MC); taking care of a dropped eagle feather (AD); all must be anticipated and dealt with. That means your Head Staff must know what to do. Without the rules set by the Head Staff there is the possibility of mistakes. That is what I speak of, when you decide to run a pow wow.

Um zu diskutieren, was gut oder was schlecht ist, im Bezug auf Powwow, muß zuerst der Head Staff (leitendes Personal) hart daran arbeiten, alles Mögliche, was während eines Powwows passieren kann, abzusehen. Gibt es doch irgend ein Problem, heißt das gewöhnlich, daß der Head Staff nicht gut vorbereitet war. Alles, vom korrekten Singen (Hostdrum); Bewertung eines Wettbewerbs (Head Judge); Ehrung einer Person (AD); die Betreuung einer gefallenen Adlerfeder (AD); Alles muß vorhergesehen werden und es muß sich damit befaßt werden. Das heißt: Euer Head Staff muß wissen, was zu tun ist. Ohne Regeln, die der Head Staff festlegt, ist die Wahrscheinlichkeit für Fehler sehr groß. Das ist es, wovon ich spreche, wenn ihr euch entscheidet, ein Powwow zu veanstalten.

Many of the rules differ in southern and northern style pow wows. In Germany, most pow wows are run in a northern style. In the states, even northern style pow wows differ a little from state to state. But, overall there are general rules. What this discussion has lead to is saying that those problems that have taken place are the result of disrespect and misunderstanding. For me, pow wow is run only one way. That comes from teaching and learning how to handle any kind of problem or question. It does not matter if that pow wow is here in Germany or in the states.

Viele der Regeln unterscheiden sich auf nördlichen und südlichen Powwows. In Deutschland werden Powwows meistens im nördlichen Stil durchgeführt. Selbst in den Staaten unterscheiden sich die Regeln ein wenig von Bundesstaat zu Bundesstaat. Aber überall gibt es allgemeine Regeln. Diese Diskussion hat gezeigt, daß die Probleme, die entstanden sind, das Resultat von Mißverständnissen und Respektlosigkeit sind. Für mich kann ein Powwow nur auf eine Art und Weise durchgeführt werden. Das ist lehren und lernen, wie jede Art von Problemen oder Fragen behandelt wird. Es ist egal, ob das Powwow hier in Deutschland oder in den Staaten ist.

There are those who want to point out things that some how prove that so called "Hobbyist Pow Wows" are different. And to prove it there is this list of complaints. What is not listed are WHY drum groups travel from many parts of Germany and from other Europeans countries to come and sing. WHY there are many dancers coming from Germany, Danmark, Sweden, Norway, England and the U.S. to participate in the contests and enjoy dancing. WHY that each year there are more people interested and want to begin participating. The answer is that there are more positive changes today and these list of complaints will not stop the growth of pow wows.

Da sind diejenigen, die Dinge aufzeigen, die belegen sollen, dass sogenannte "Hobbyisten Powwows" anders sind. Und um das zu beweisen gibt es diese Liste mit Beschwerden. Was nicht in der Liste steht ist WARUM kommen Trommelgruppen von vielen Teilen Deutschlands und von anderen europäischen Staaten hierher um zu singen. WARUM sind hier so viele Tänzer aus Deutschland, Dänemark, Schweden, Norwegen, England und den USA, um am Wettbewerb teilzunehmen und das Tanzen zu genießen. WARUM sind hier jedes Jahr mehr interessierte Leute und möchten auch am Powwow teilzunehmen. Die Antwort ist, es hat sich bis heute vieles zum positiven verändert und diese Bescherdeliste wird nicht das Wachstum des Powwows aufhalten.

On a personal note, it was bought up that "A dancer being asked to bring in POW/MIA flag, refused because sale of items was more important". Now, if that is refering to me, I am not sure, but if it is. Here is my answer. If a dancer is not on the pow wow committee and made no prior commitment to participate, then he or she is consider a guest. As a guest, it is his or hers own decision whether to dance, enter a contest or be in the grand entry. The pow wow committee can ask for assistance, but if the dancer decides not to, then the pow wow committee moves on to the next dancer. It is as simple as that. I decide if and where I want to dress up and dance. No one demands anything of me. It is as simple as that. So that can be taken off the list.

Noch eine persönliche Bemerkung, es wurde gesagt "ein Tänzer, der gebeten wurde, die POW/MIA Flagge zu tragen, lehnte ab, weil der Verkauf von Gegenständen wichtiger war". Nun, ich bin nicht sicher, ob das auf mich bezogen war, aber falls ja, hier ist die Antwort: Wenn ein Tänzer nicht im Powwow-Komitee ist und sich auch nicht verpflichtet hat, daran teilzunehmen, ist er oder sie als Gast anzusehen. Als Gast ist es seine oder ihre eigene Entscheidung zu tanzen, am Wettbewerb teilzunehmen oder den Grand Entry mitzumachen. Das Powwow Komitee kann um Unterstützung bitten, aber wenn der Tänzer sich entscheidet, dieses nicht zu tun, fragt das Powwow-Komitee den nächsten Tänzer. Es ist so einfach wie es ist. Ich entscheide, ob und wo ich mich umziehen und tanzen möchte. Niemand kann irgendetwas von mir beanspruchen. Es ist so einfach wie es ist. Also kann das von der Liste gestrichen werden.

With respect, Ryan Burr
Mit Respekt, Ryan Burr

[besucherin aus usa]

tja, wie machen denn das die indianer in usa und canada? ganz unterschiedlich, je nachdem wo man gerade ist. und wenn mal jemandem federn runterfallen, hat es jedesmal eine bedeutung und oft wird gesagt, dass man mal ueber sein leben nachdenken soll, ob vielleicht gerade mal was nicht stimmt oder negative dinge laufen.

zum federaufheben: sehr wohl nehmen indianische frauen (elders) federn auf, zumindest in canada habe ich es oft erlebt, wie auch frauen schon den eagle staff beim grand entry getragen haben (manitoba und saskatchewan) und uebrigens auch bei den dakota sioux (wo es doch immer heisst die seien ja soooo traditional, eeeeeh?)

keinem indianischen taenzer/ taenzerin wuerde es einfallen sich so zu benehmen wie von ringo beschrieben. wenn ein sioux bei einem cree pow wow tanzt und eine feder faellt, wird nach der tradition vor ort gehandelt, schliesslich ist er gast beim cree pow wow.natuerlich auch andersrum.
in zeiten wo man auf pow wows des mittleren westens indianische leute von ueberall trifft - von natives aus dem suedwesten ueber alaskaleute
california tribes und von den ossiess (eastern tribes)gar nicht zu reden - sprich intertribal, muss nach der jeweils vor ort tradition gehandelt werden. macht man ja auch und da meckert niemand rum.

ueblicherweise wird eine donation gemacht (monetary) oder ne blanket manchmal an die elders/oder/ und auchmanchmal an die taenzer und musikanten (wenn ein feater pick up gesungen und getanzt wird) in canada hab ich oft erlebt, dass die elders die feder aufheben und damit beten und sie zuruekgeben.
gesehen habe ich auch schon dass kein elder aufhebt, sondern von 4 mens traditional dancers (die um gefallene feder ceremonial dance machen ) vorher einer gewaehlt wird, oft der "in service" gewesen ist, dh im militaer gedient hat. vorzugsweise echte "veterans" dh vietnam, golfkrieg oder ganz aktuell irak.

monetary donation:wenn man kein geld zur hand hat kann man z.B. pledgen dh man gelobt eine spende fuer zb das pow wow des naechsten jahres.

grosse pow wows in staedten> dort sind meist multikulti leute vor ort, dh fast die gesamte stadtindianerpopulation trifft sich mit den "pow wow people" ( so genannt, weil die den ganzen sommer auf pow wows nomadisierend reisen.da trifft man oft immer dieselben leute an.

bei den grossen intertribal pow wows habe ich schon erlebt, das unsicherheit aufkam, wie man es nun macht. aber auch das wird immer locker indianisch gehandhabt, da laesst man auch besucher elders ran in sachen federn aufheben und beten.

also ihr seht, es ist so allerlei moeglich hier.

lieber gruss aus dem midwest usa

besucherin aus usa

[Nicki]

Hatte länger nicht reingesehen, aber genauso wie beschrieben ist es abgelaufen und hat großen Wirbel verursacht. Denke mal wenn du alles gelesen hast kennst du auch die Meinungen.

[Ringo]

Da ich dieses Thema begonnen habe möchte ich zum Schluß auch noch was sagen.
Danke für die vielen Wortmeldungen ich hätte nicht gedacht das die Wellen so hoch schlagen.

Ich bin der Meinung man sollte nicht indianischer sein als die Indianer.

Gruss Ringo

[Nicki]

Ich denke mal nicht, daß die Leute indianischer waren als Indianer. Zur Info: Es waren Indianer dort und die waren von der Art und Weise sehr betroffen. Außerdem habe ich schon mal gesagt, daß dieser Vorfall eine große Welle der Empörung geschlagen hatte. Ich will jetzt nicht mehr näher darauf eingehen.
Nur eins sollte noch gesagt werden: Wenn ich so ein Hobby ausübe und zu solchen Veranstaltungen gehe, dann sollte ich auch den nötigen Respekt zeigen und mich auch entsprechend verhalten.

[usa]

ihr habt echt probleme

ich bin so froh , das ich nicht mehr in deutschland lebe.
und das ich aus dieser powwow scene draussen bin.

[benzi]

ihr habt echt probleme

ich bin so froh , das ich nicht mehr in deutschland lebe.
und das ich aus dieser powwow scene draussen bin.

Ich kann Dich gut verstehn, aber wo kommt dieses Land hin wenn alle gehn, die etwas besser drauf sind? Ich werde mir die Freude auf einem Pow Wow zuzusehn und irgendwann vielleicht zu tanzen, nicht nehmen lassen. Wenn da Dinge schief laufen, ist es an uns diese zu ändern. Trotzdem würde ich dieses Land der kleinkarrierten Enge, vorallen in den Köpfen, auch manchmal gerne verlassen.....

liebe Grüße benzi

[besucherin aus usa]

da bin ich wieder, der benzi hat recht, kann ja nicht jeder einfach weg aus deutschland. ich denke, ich war auch lang genug in brd. hatte viel mit der indianerszene zu tun - von hobbyisten ueber new agers bis zu den politics. aber es ist halt anders wenn du mit den "first nations/native americans" zusammen und hier bist.trotzdem finde ich es gut wenn man sich interessiert, geht manchmal seltsame wege, aber thats ok.
am wochenende ist pow wow in ft thompson - south dakota, i will be there.....
hey wusstet ihr, dass man neuerdings different categorys bei fancy shawl hat? war bei einem, wo meine freundin grace her many horses gesponsert hat. style> old school und contemporary. echt leute die lassen sich immer ws neues einfallen. so wie neuerdings in canada in sask und man die grass dancers vor dem grand entry den ground blessen and boy - ihr solltet die prairie chicken dance contests sehen, holy smokes.
oh kein platz mehr - wuensche euch allen eine gute zeit (und pow wow season) bye und tschuess

[little]

Hallo Besucherin aus USA

das klingt ja sehr interessant.
Erzähl doch bitte mehr über die neuesten Trends

Vielen Dank und viele Grüsse

[Elisabeth Riedel]

Habe leider jetzt erst diesen Wirbel um Burbach mitbekommen.

Tatsache ist doch dieses,es ist nicht der beste Umgangston ,wenn man nicht den Respekt vor einer älteren Person hat, und das ist keine gute Kinderstube,und es tut mir leid das keiner dazu fähig war diesen Menschen zu maßregeln. Ich denke damit ist genug gesagt und geschrieben.
Habt alle mehr Respekt voreinander

[Elke]

Hallo Leute...

Hab da mal ne Frage... und zwar ob es sich bei beiden Personen um den gleichen Menschen handelt???

http://www.paranews.net/beitrag.php?cid=2957

der Herr auf dem oberen Bild...links...

und

http://www.agpf.de/lightningbear.htm

???

Gruß sendet Elke

Herzlichen Gruß sendet Elke

[Elke]

Im übrigen handelt es sich bei dem ersten Link um eine Selbstdarstellung eines Esotherikkongresses....

Gruß sendet Elke

[Elke]

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:QYD ... clnk&cd=27

gleicher Kongress... wers Liveerleben möchte...

[Jeli]

Wenn das stimmt ....mit der 20-jährigen....... Das würde alles übertreffen, was mir an Mißbrauchsfällen durch Schamanen /Medizinleute bisher zu Ohren kam. Ich erinnere eine weinende, junge Frau lange Zeit nach dem betreffenden Vorfall. Ihre kleine Tochter u. ihr Mann befanden sich bei ihr, als sie erzählte. Im Nachhinein war ihr klar geworden, daß das freundliche Tätscheln ihres Bauchs in einer Schwitzhütte energetisch Raub gewesen war.

[benzi]

Hallo zusammen,

obwohl ich die letzte Nacht nach der Lektüre dieses Links schlecht geschlafen hab, und ich gestehen muss, daß ich zugenähte weibliche Geschlechtsteile vor Augen hatte als ich eingschlafen bin, muss ich doch ein paar Worte zur Verteidigung sagen. Weiß auch nicht genau was mich dazu veranlaßt......

Zum einen liegt die Tat 10 Jahre zurück und da es eine Strafe auf Bewährung war, kamen solche Dinge ja vermutlich nicht wieder vor.

Zum anderen muss ich mich fragen, warum Menschen erst auf der Suche nach den abgefahrensden schamanischen Praktiken sind, und dann zum Gericht gehen, wenn sie genau die abgefahrensden schamanischen Praktiken gefunden haben?

Ich weiß daß das hart klingt, soll es auch, vielleicht hält es den ein oder die andere von derartigen Suchen ab?

liebe Grüße benzi

[Jeli]

Hallo zusammen,

obwohl ich die letzte Nacht nach der Lektüre dieses Links schlecht geschlafen hab, und ich gestehen muss, daß ich zugenähte weibliche Geschlechtsteile vor Augen hatte als ich eingschlafen bin, muss ich doch ein paar Worte zur Verteidigung sagen. Weiß auch nicht genau was mich dazu veranlaßt......

Zum einen liegt die Tat 10 Jahre zurück und da es eine Strafe auf Bewährung war, kamen solche Dinge ja vermutlich nicht wieder vor.

Zum anderen muss ich mich fragen, warum Menschen erst auf der Suche nach den abgefahrensden schamanischen Praktiken sind, und dann zum Gericht gehen, wenn sie genau die abgefahrensden schamanischen Praktiken gefunden haben?

Ich weiß daß das hart klingt, soll es auch, vielleicht hält es den ein oder die andere von derartigen Suchen ab?

liebe Grüße benzi

Hallo,
ich mußte mich auch die ganze Nacht damit beschäftigen, hab von einigen Personen geträumt.......

Aus den spärlichen Infos geht hervor, daß es sich speziell um eine Frauen-Schwitzhütte handelte ....von einem Mann veranstaltet (das sollte einem doch bereits zu denken geben bzw. fragen lassen, ob das stimmig sein kann). Außerdem war zu entnehmen, daß das Mädchen zum damaligen Zeitpunkt minderjährig war. Falls die Berichte stimmen, spiegelte der "Schamane" indianische Bräuche vor, mißbrauchte vor allem das Vertrauen dieser Frauen, benutzte romantische Jungmädchen-Träume + vielleicht ins Mystische tendierende Sehnsüchte, um sadistische Praktiken auszuüben ....das Ganze mit pseudo-religiöser Verbrämung? Wenn die Nebenklägerinnen derlei Abscheuliches gewollt hätten, würde Deine Äußerung zutreffen, Benzi. Aber bei dem Gerichtsverfahren kam man offenbar zu einem anderen Schluß.

Benzi, ich weiß auch nicht, weshalb Du "das" geschrieben hast. Was mit "abgefahrendsten Praktiken suchen" indirekt unterstellt wird, klingt aber nach solchen Stammtischredensarten wie: warum hat sie sich auch so aufreizend verhalten /gekleidet etc.... od.: da sie hinging, hat sie doch ihre Einwilligung gegeben usw.......
Alle Opfer haben genau die Situation gesucht /gewollt, die sie später erfahren haben? - da könnten wir fast das komplette Rechtssystem abschaffen.

Anscheinend gibt es viele dieser "Muß"? ...die einen "müssen" Klamotten oder Zubehör basteln, die anderen zu Schwitzhütten laufen + die Dritten können sich anscheinend nur mit einem NDN liieren /bzw. zusammen leben? usw.............

lg

[benzi]

Hallo Jeli,

warum hab ich immer das Gefühl, daß wenn die Esoterikecke mal etwas kritisiert wird, Du immer mit Deinem Kontra ETWAS übers Ziel hinaus schießt?

Den Schuh einen Vergewaltiger verteidigen zu wollen ziehe ich mir nun wirklich nicht an, ich finde diese Vergleiche auch ziemlich beleidigend. Alle Zeitungsberichte sind sich einig, daß es keine sexuellen Motive gab.

Aber vielleicht sagt der Betroffene mal selber was dazu?

liebe Grüße benzi